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by John Valenzuela
It's important to me that you all understand a bit about my job. See, it's not nearly as glamorous and spectacular as it sounds. No, really. It's rarely normal hours, it doesn't pay well, and while I'm doing all the work, someone else is usually getting all the credit. But then again, there are those times when all of the aforementioned BS is well worth putting up with. Last month was one of those times, and really when it comes down to it, I do have a very cool job. Roger Waters returned to the spotlight in 1999 when, sometime around February, he posted the infamous line on his website, "Roger Waters to tour in 1999?" What a thrill it was when I got the confirmation from his label that he was indeed going to tour during the summer of 1999. And if that wasn't enough, my company secured the deal to make a radio special in support of the tour. Regular readers of Spare Bricks know all about my jaunt out to Long Island with Jim Ladd last summer, where we spent the afternoon at Roger's home, recorded a fascinating interview, and had a great dinner out that night. As a fan, it was a dream come true. As a professional radio show producer, it was a dream come true. This wasn't anything like his visit to Rockline for Amused To Death when he was in England while we were in Los Angeles, nor was it like broadcasting The Wall concert in Berlin, when there were literally hundreds of people involved in the production. Nope; it was just me, Jim, Roger, and a few bandmates having some quality hang time. When I returned to New York in August for the Jones Beach date of the tour, I met up with Roger backstage where, a bit to my surprise, he specifically said to me, "Oh, I remember you." The producer in me thought, "Great, I made some kind of impression." The fan in me thought, "f*ck yeah!" This year, Roger returned to the road, and once again, we were there to do all we could to promote the tour. This time out, we did a "press conference" with Roger. He was in Paris and Jim was with us here in Los Angeles. This was a quick, fun little project that accomplished exactly what it was intended to do: promote the tour, and catch everyone up with the status of his studio projects. And almost around the same time as the press conference, Is There Anybody Out There? was released, and we were there with a two-part World Premiere special. Then there was the 25th anniversary special for Wish You Were Here in October. Funny, for someone who'd been fairly reclusive the past seven years, Roger's really come up for air lately! Which brings me to Thursday, November 2, 2000. There I was sitting at my desk organizing some notes for–I kid you not–a Backstreet Boys radio show, when from around the corner my boss yells, "Johnny, you're going to the Bahamas to interview Roger Waters." All right, he knows what a die-hard Roger Waters/Pink Floyd fan I am, but I knew we were negotiating to do a broadcast for his upcoming live album, so I approached with caution. "Uh, okay. When do I leave?" "Tuesday morning. The interview is Wednesday."
For all the cables, mic stands, odd-looking tape decks, and batteries that were in my bag, clearing customs was a breeze, and on Tuesday, November 7, at 4:30pm, I was in Nassau. It was warm, humid, and just bitchin'! I didn't know what I was more excited about; working with Roger Waters again or being in the Caribbean. I've been to a few ports in the Carribean, but never to the Bahamas, so my locale was no little side note. I hopped in a cab and made my way to the Radisson Resort at Cable Beach. Nice hotel. No, really nice hotel. One of those all-inclusive, never-need-to-leave-the-premises kind of place, although I was definitely going to leave the premises once the work portion of the trip was over because there was no way I could afford to stay in this place at my own expense; company tab, yes, but not my own. Dinner that night was a banquet that the hotel hosts out by the pool every Tuesday, and you sit at large tables with various other hotel guests in a sort of cruise-ship-meet-and-greet style setting. I had dinner with a couple from Chicago that had gotten engaged only hours earlier. The girl was glowing, and the guy looked relieved. Guess she said "yes." A few drinks after dinner and it was off to bed for me. A good chunk of Wednesday morning was taken up with a little technical snafu in the conference room where we were to do the interview; there was no phone line. The hotel tech did finally get it working, but it took longer than I think it should have. Why? Because we're on island time now. Everything takes just a little longer than what we're used to here in the States. Everyone is in such a hurry here, but there on the island such was not the case. Obviously, I hadn't quite assimilated yet, so after we got the technical bugs ironed out, I was off to the beach for the afternoon. White sand, turquoise blue ocean, lounge chair, blended rum drink, temperature in the upper 80s, mildly humid, and Animals in my Walkman; now this how to prepare for an interview!
After a few rum drinks, a few dips in the ocean, and a few rum drinks while dipping in the ocean (what, you don't believe me? I have the photos to prove it.), the time had now come to head back to my room, clean up, and haul the gear down to the conference room. Sometime during my shower, Roger's management called and left the message on my voice mail that Roger's plane had been delayed and that he would actually arrive about 2 hours later than originally scheduled. Well, back to the beach I went. What else was I to do, pace the floor for two hours? Hell no, I was in the Bahamas!
"Hello?" "Hello?" "Hi Roger, it's John Valenzuela." "Oh good. Yes, well, I've just gotten in from a miserable day in the airport and no one at the front desk would help me carry all my fishing gear to my room, so I'm a little ticked off right now. I'll come straight down, but can you arrange to have some cold, German beverages waiting?" "Sure thing." "Good, and make sure it's German. I can't drink that American Budweiser stuff." (Who can?) So we hung up and I immediately called for beverage service. Now remember, we're on island time, and while I was on hold with the desk, Roger walked in. Recalling how long the phone line ordeal took, I suggested we go to the bar first before we hook up with Jim. Roger whole-heartedly agreed with the idea. As the interview went on, and as I watched Roger answered Jim's questions, it became more and more apparent to me that Roger didn't really want to do this interview. At least, not at that time. Hey, he just arrived in the Bahamas after a delayed flight, no help with his bags, and once the interview was done, his 6-day fishing trip could begin. Can you blame him? I felt kinda bad, but he took it in stride and made the most of it. Thank goodness he and Jim have the relationship they do, because had that been anyone else on the phone, this interview would have been over quickly. Sometime during the interview, Roger's friend/tour manager/front of house sound engineer, Trip Khalaf, came into the room. Trip is from the US, about average height and weight, blonde hair, with just a bit of a "character" vibe to him, and as the tour manager, not only did he keep the production rolling smoothly but also, I'm certain, he kept things light-hearted and fun. Trip had arrived earlier in the day and was going to join Roger on the fishing excursion. Sounded like a lot of fun, but I wasn't about to even suggest an imposition so grand that I might come along on the adventure. I'll make that offer to him the next time Roger comes to play in Boise. Anyway, on with the interview, and it got better and better as the minutes went on. I don't know if it was the drinks, Jim Ladd, or just the fact that Roger had begun his assimilation to island time, but Roger became progressively more and more relaxed. And somewhere in there, this interview turned into just about one of the funniest I've ever witnessed. I'm here to tell you that, among Roger's many talents, he's also a comedian when he wants to be, and Jim Ladd served as the perfect straight man, although Jim got his shots in too. I kid you not, by the end of it, my face hurt from laughing so much. This was a side of Roger Waters I had never seen before. After the interview was over, I offered to take both Roger and Trip to dinner, and minutes later we were in a cab headed to the Poop Deck restaurant. It was a wonderful evening of conversation, of which 94% wasn't about music. We talked fly fishing, we talked about boats, we talked about the slow service in the restaurant and how they seemed to be out of just about everything. "What, no scorched conch? This is the Bahamas, how can you be out of conch?" And I lost count how many times Roger asked the waitress for some hot sauce before he finally gave up. I said, "Well, Roger, they're probably out of hot sauce but just don't have the heart to tell you." All the while, Trip and I embibed of the local beer, Kalik, while Roger enjoyed his German Beck's. Sometime during the meal, it dawned on me that with each successive project I've worked with Roger on over the past 11 years, it's become less and less of a producer/artist only type of relationship, and as I sat there at dinner, all the "industry"ness of the trip was seemingly left behind with the recording gear at the hotel. This was clearly the most human side of Roger Waters I had ever seen, and it was quite pleasant. I mean, it was really, really nice to sit with someone for whom I have the utmost musical respect for, and put all that aside and just be humans for a while. How else can I say it? Roger's actually a pretty cool person to hang with. And that 6% of conversation that was about music wasn't about rock and roll, but about his opera-in-the-making, Ca Ira. He mentioned that he couldn't work on the new studio album next year because some of his band members were going out on the road with Eric Clapton, but that was okay because it meant he could–and would–finish Ca Ira in the down time. Last summer, he played some of the music from Ca Ira for Jim and me, but the vocals hadn't been recorded yet. As of dinner, he had just finished recording the tenor parts in New York earlier that week, so I could see his rejuvenated eagerness to finish it. Clearly though, Roger works on his own timetable; it's done when it's done. And that's true for the new studio album as well. Nothing gets rushed. I think when he gives a projected release time for a project, it's probably more just to get the questioner off his back. But let's face it, whatever Roger Waters has put out, it's always been worth the wait.
"John, I'm sure you will. Thanks for everything, and thank you for dinner." With that, it was into the elevator, up to my room and on to slumberland. I spent the rest of my time in the Bahamas kicking back on the beach with rum drinks, swimming in the warm water, enjoying island music and cracked conch, and doing my best to exist on island time. And all the while, I thought back to dinner, and really back on the last two years and the various Roger Waters/Pink Floyd projects I've had the privilege to work on. Yep, no doubt about it; sometimes I really like my job.
John Valenzuela is a staff writer for Spare Bricks, and one heck of a lucky guy.
ROGER WATERS INTERVIEW
Very special thanks to MFM Ltd, Columbia Records, Jim Ladd and the SFX Multimedia group for their kind permissions to post the transcript of this interview here. This interview transcript is copyright 2000 SFX Radio Network, all rights reserved. No portion of this transcript may be reproduced in any way, shape or form whatsoever without the expressed written consent of the copyright owner, SFX Radio Network. (Roger Waters is seated at a table in a conference room at the Radisson Cable Beach Resort Hotel in The Bahamas, waiting for Jim Ladd to make his way into the studio in Los Angeles to begin the interview. Portions of this interview are featured in the SFX Radio Network's World Premiere broadcast of Roger's new 2-CD live album, In The Flesh, recorded on his sold-out 2000 North American tour.) JIM LADD: (as he enters the studio in Los Angeles) Oh, Mr. Waters is waiting, well, we can't keep Mr. Waters waiting now, can we? ROGER WATERS: Hello! Hello? JL: Hold on, I'll be right there, where are the headphones? RW: Speak up! JL: Roger! Hello. RW: Is that you James? JL: Yes sir, how are you? RW: 'Bout fucking time too! You know, I don't know if this speakerphone is going to work. Let's try to have a conversation. I'll say one and two and you say three and four, OK? One two.
JL: Five Six. RW: Yeah, good, that works. How ya doing, buddy? JL: I'm doing great. I'm doing real good, how about yourself? RW: Well I'm a bit harassed because all my planes were late and you know what it's like down here as well, arriving here in the Bahamas. Well, anyway, here we are in election week. JL: What did you think of what happened last night? RW: I think it's great. It looks like it's going to go on for a week, doesn't it? JL: It's pretty amazing stuff. I'll tell ya, I think it's pretty riveting stuff to watch how this happens and how the country deals with it, I mean I love it. RW: OK, well, shall we do this? JL: Yes, ok, now here's what's gonna happen. Because of the speakerphone–oh, and by the way, thank you for inviting me down there, I'm really sorry I couldn't get the time off, but I appreciate the invitation. I would have loved to have seen you there. RW: I would have loved to seen you too. JL: Well let's begin, Mr. Waters, with your reaction to the tour because it seemed an overwhelming success both from the audience and the critics' point of view. So I just want to start with how the tour went from your perspective. RW: It was grand. It was a really great six weeks. I kind of miss it. I'm rather sorry that we're not doing it again this summer, but we're not for one reason or another. Well, actually we're not for one reason only and that's because Eric [Clapton] is touring the whole year and lots of the people from the band are involved with him. Andy Fairweather is in the band as is Katie [Kissoon], and Doyle [Bramhall] is Eric's supporter. So I'm gonna get a break this summer, but I will definitely be back on the road again the following year because I had a ball. It was just very moving and I really enjoyed myself. JL: Excellent. Well that's good news for the fans because I think a lot of people would love to hear that. You heard it first here on SFX. One of the things that people remarked on, Roger, was the choice of the songs because, along with the great sampling of well-known tunes from both Pink Floyd as well as your solo work, you also chose some lesser known tracks which I think the fans really seemed to appreciate. How did you go about deciding on the song selection? RW: Just, you know, listened to all the old albums, made a list and whittled away at it until I had a couple of hours that felt as if it fitted all together and would flow and would be a good evening. JL: Speaking of a flow, and we'll get into this more in depth as we move along, but one of the things I liked was the order in which you played the songs and how the show built, and the fact that you would give us a block of songs from each album so you could kind of settle into that album. Obviously beginning with "In The Flesh!" This, to me, seemed to be the perfect opening song, but was this your first choice all along or did you have another song in mind originally? RW: That was always–I think that's a great opener. It's so readily identifiable and it provides me at the beginning of the show with an opportunity to connect and for us to all together enjoy the irony, the ironies in the lyrics of that particular song. I mean both the audience and I really enjoy all this stuff about "are there any queers" and "that one is Jewish and that one's a coon" and people leap to their feet and are pointing at themselves. It's just a really nice way for, um–that satire gives a, you know, it's a nice way for us to all understand that we're all included in the joke if you like and that we're together. JL: Wonderful, wonderful and the staging–the visual of it, very dramatic, too, with you up on that riser and the spotlight, it is just the perfect opening to the show and everybody is kind of in it immediately aren't they? RW: Yep, it works well. And we used as the backdrop the photographs from Berlin, which worked really well. JL: You then segued into, again staying with The Wall for a while here which was nice, you segued into "The Happiest Days Of Our Lives" and then "Another Brick In The Wall (Part Two)". And I noticed a wonderful cross section of fans at the show. They ranged from people who were in high school when these songs were first released to kids who are in school today and both groups seemed to love these songs equally. So it seems that the message of these tunes are as relevant today as when you wrote them. Would you agree? RW: It seems so, you know, successive generations seem to discover these songs when they hit puberty or whatever it is. Um... how cool. JL: That's all you're gonna give me on that? RW: Well you see, Jim, the thing is they kept me waiting on the fucking runway at La Guardia for what felt like four or five hours. It was probably 45 minutes. And at my advanced age I'm pretty sensitive to that kind of stuff. JL: Ha, ha, ha. RW: And a lot of brain cells at the moment–some of the brain cells that probably ought to be responding to these questions of yours are actually fueling my loathing. JL: I see. RW: Of travel. JL: Ha, ha, ha. RW: And all of that and so it may be that some of my answers will be a little bit on the skimpy side. However, I was thinking about that earlier as I walked through the doors of this awful hotel and the bell captain and two of his honchos stood and watched me walk by struggling under the weight of my four or five bags full of fishing gear and not–without even a flicker of an eyelid in my direction with the suggestion that maybe they might like to help me with my bags. JL: Ha, ha, ha. RW: And I think hatred is too precious a commodity to waste on this travel bullshit so I'm just beginning to calm down now. I dashed to the bar and bought–with Johnny–and bought me a Bacardi and Coke, which as we speak is working its way gently into my bloodstream. So it may well be that in the near future I may become a little bit more forthcoming because at the moment I'm just pretending. JL: I understand. RW: Okay? JL: Ha, ha, ha. RW: Where were we? JL: Ha, ha, ha. RW: Ah, yes, "we don't need no education." Marvelous. JL: That's, uh, so far that's the best rap of the show. I love that, ha, ha, ha. Okay... ah, thank God for Johnny and the Bacardi and Coke. RW: Exactly. JL: Well you must have been really pleased I would think, at least the shows I saw–I saw four shows RW: Right.
JL: And the audience reaction during the song "Mother", they seemed to be hanging on every word. And for example the reaction when you asked the rhetorical question, "Mother should I trust the government?" That audience was with you and did you feel that? RW: Yeah absolutely. Well we all know somewhere deep in our hearts that, much as the various forms of democracy that in the civilized world we employ, and which as we all agree are better than the forms of tyranny that are existent in lots of other places in the world. You know, rather the bland aphorism on television than the machete in the neck you would get if you were an African or something. But not withstanding that, we all understand as well that there's something flawed about all of this. It's interesting now, we're in the throes of this–of the aftermath of the presidential election. Nobody knows who has won and probably won't for a while and anyway, what a strange victory it's going to be. It could be that the next President will have actually had less of the popular vote cast for him than the guy who loses–what am I trying to say? I'm trying to say that we don't trust government because we see so much of its energy go into public relations and posturing. And particularly we see foreign policy used as a way of fueling the incumbent's popularity, very often at the cost of lives at ground zero or wherever it is in some foreign field where we express our macho inclinations in order to impress the folks back home. So I think politics is in its infancy I think. And it's, people to a certain extent buy infants or even if they're not infants and it may well be that a lot of them are brighter than they appear to be, they certainly–their posturing would lead one to suppose that they think they are dealing with infants. JL: Well I really wish you would have done "The Fletcher Memorial Home" in the show now after that rap. RW: Yeah that would have been good. JL: Yeah, well before we move on, let me ask you about the lovely Katie Kissoon because I thought her performance on "Mother" was extraordinary. RW: Yeah it's great. She does it really well. She's a great singer, Katie. They were all, all great singers those girls. And the way she sings those middle eights of "Mother," it's interesting to hear it sung by a woman, you know? There was a bit of resistance in certain quarters to that. Some of us get very attached to the old ways of doing these things. James for instance–he won't mind me saying that–James Guthrie, who's mixed this album and recorded it. You know, obviously he co-produced and engineered the original album so he has a huge investment in the original piece. And he finds it a bit difficult to stray from how it was. But I thought she did a great job and I really like the recording that we made of it. JL: And it's interesting that you would be the one who would be, you know, trying these new things. And you are–something I also noticed in the show, as an overall statement is that you are very–
Jim is cut off as the door of the hotel conference room opens and Roger's friend/tour manager/live sound engineer Trip Khalaf enters. RW: Ha, ha, ha. It's Trip Khalaf! He's just come flying into the room. Trip say hello to Jim. TRIP KHALAF: Hi Jim, how are you? Nice to see you, or not. JL: How are you doing? TK: I'm all right. RW: Sit down and be quiet. TK: Thank you very much. RW: Okay, carry on. JL: It's okay. RW: That's Trip Khalaf, as we know who mixed the show. And is joining me here in the land of the, um, you know the land where you can't remember any words. JL: I understand. RW: Yes, and we're gonna go fishing tomorrow. JL: Good. Would I have gotten to go fishing if I would have come there? RW: Ah yes, of course you would. JL: Damn–I love... RW: I would have taken you fishing, Jim. JL: Well all right–another time. Okay, let's–by the way, a very fine job in the mixing of the show. I mean that. I was at four of them and you did a great job, man. TK: Gracias senor. JL: Let's move on to "Get Your Filthy Hands Off My Desert" and "Southampton Dock." We'll take these together. Both of these songs from The Final Cut–and I always felt this album, Roger, and I want you to comment on this, to me this was almost an extension of The Wall in that it was a more in depth look at the subject of war and the loss of your father. Is that accurate? RW: Yeah, it was a more in depth look at a bit of story that was The Wall. "One Of The Few" particularly was some material left over from The Wall that pertained to the teacher character so we understand that he was actually ex-RAF and had his own problems. JL: Um, and since we have the gentleman who mixed the live show in there–it's funny that you come in now because my next question was–I thought this would be a good place to talk about the use of sound effects... RW: Right. JL: To enhance the songs and how well that played live. How did you go about getting these–I mean because on the CD and in the concert hall these things, they really read. Do you know what I mean? It's not like, well, there's something here. I mean they were really present and mixed correctly.
RW: Yes, well, you know, if you're prepared to spend the money you get the best, Jim. What can I tell you? JL: Ha, ha, ha. RW: A lot of hardware, a lot of software, a lot of underwear. JL: I see. A lot of sound effects all right. Roger, did you design the staging of the show yourself? RW: Yes, I did it all on my own. Hang on a minute, did I? Well, no, of course we all worked as a team, you know? And Jonathan Park, who I've been working with–if you can call that working–since 1976 I think, because he and Mark Fisher started working on the Animals tour when we did that, when I started using inflatables. And so he and I really did it together. JL: I know you can't go through the whole show, but for those–there's gonna be some people–I know this seems incredible to you, Roger, but there will be some people listening to this show that didn't get to go to the concerts. If you can in some way, describe the use of visual projections. I know you don't need to line-up every picture that was taken, but just kind of give us a general view of what was going on while the show was playing. RW: Well we had four projectors–front projectors–just projecting slides onto a backdrop in an attempt to create a show that was two things, one cheap... JL: Ha, ha, ha. RW: And two, you didn't have to turn lights on and off all the time, you know? I find that VariLite business that snuck up on us like a rash in the 70's very irritating, all that twirling and whizzing of things on lights and cues. And so I wanted to give people images to look at that had something to do with the songs and created an effect, so that's what we did. JL: That's interesting because one of the most dramatic things about the show, and I didn't really think of that until you mentioned it was what you didn't do, and that was this frenetic bombardment of light cues. You didn't do that. You really kind of set the stage and let the music and the visuals in the background carry the show. RW: That's right, and we didn't do that Genesis silly walk thing that they do at all. JL: Ha, ha, ha. RW: And we didn't do the conical bra thing that Madonna does. JL: Ha, ha, ha. RW: Sorry, go ahead, Jim. JL: All right, all right, all right. Did you–and then we'll move off of this–did you choose, because I know you have the reputation of–well I don't want to use the word control freak, Roger, but you know, someone who likes to be in charge. Did you choose everything that was projected on the screen? Did you sit down and say, okay, I want that photograph there and this photograph to come up at this lyric and so forth? RW: Yes. JL: Ha, ha, ha. Johnny, run out and get him another Rum and Coke will ya because I think this is ah... RW: Actually I've got one sitting here waiting for me. No, I didn't choose everything. That's not quite the way it works. Sometimes Jonathan chooses things and sometimes they're great and I go,"That's great." JL: I see. RW: And sometimes they're not and I go, "That's not great." JL: Ha, ha, ha. RW: And we choose something else together as a team. JL: Don't ever bring me anything that's not great again. "Pigs On The Wing" (Part One), another acoustic piece which you are able to hold–and I mean this without, I'm not kidding around–you were able to hold the crowd in a quiet rapture. RW: In thrall. JL: I'm sorry. RW: Ha, ha, ha–I was able to hold them in thrall. JL: Enthralled yes. RW: No no, in thrall. JL: In thrall. RW: It's an adjective. It's an adjective that we use on this side of the pond to describe an enraptured audience. We describe them as in thrall and you don't very often get to use it, so I thought I would in this interview. JL: So there's no D at the end. It's 'in thrall'. RW: In thrall. TK: It starts with an I, not an E. JL: Yeah, I still... RW: Exactly. I-N-T-H-R-A-L-L. JL: I still think in quiet rapture is much more poetic, but we'll go with in thrall if you'd like. Not that you're a control freak, but we'll go with in thrall if that makes you happy. RW: That would make me happier. I think it's more erudite, I think it's more eloquent. JL: Ha, ha, ha. RW: I just think it's better journalism frankly. JL: Ha, ha, ha. Okay, all right, all right, I'm not gonna argue the King's English with you. Man, you know what, the next time we do one of these, I'm gonna let you write the questions as well and I'll just parrot them back to you. RW: I'm not good at writing questions.
JL: Oh okay, well let me–then here's a question, see if you can be good at answering this one. Do you feel that the audience... RW: Cause I don't give a fuck about all this. I'd be useless at writing the questions. I couldn't give a shit, Jim. JL: Ha, ha, ha. You're not that better at answering them today, Rog, so let me get to 'em. RW: I know, I know, I know. Come on, get on with it. JL: Do you feel, because I know this has been a big thing with you over the years and this is after the Animals thing and why you partly wrote The Wall, but... RW: I never touched those animals. JL: Yeah, ha, ha, ha, well, again I've heard it's lonely on the sheep farm. RW: A filthy rumor. JL: Ha, ha, ha. RW: Sorry, go on. JL: Ha, ha, ha. Do you feel that the audience has become a bit more sophisticated in that there was a minimum of noise during the quieter acoustic songs this time around? RW: Well, you told them not to make any noise during the acoustic bits. JL: Yes. RW: If I recall in the speech that you made. Mind you that was only Portland and we did record three other gigs. So, but yes, you're quite right, they definitely–there seemed to be a much smaller proportion of the audience who were there for the beer and are there to hear themselves shouting, 'Go in the hole,' or whatever it is that they shout. They don't shout that at rock concerts do they? That's golf things. What is it that they do shout? JL: "Smoke On The Water"? RW: "You're the man!" They shout that. JL: Yeah. RW: Quite a lot, which is very irritating I find. But there we are. I think, 'Go in the hole' is expressing some deep fundamental subconscious need to connect with the out there-ness of everything. I wonder if it's not possible that in the future some weird telekinetic savant may develop who will telepathically communicate this notion of going in the hole thereby rendering golf redundant. JL: Ha, ha, ha. RW: What do you think about that? JL: Oh, golf? I thought we were back to your sheep fetish again. I'm sorry, you're talking about golf. RW: Right. JL: Okay. RW: So yes, it is jolly nice. It is great that–it is great that they–and I don't mean to make light of this because when I'm singing those quiet songs, I find it quite moving that everybody listens. JL: I thought this would be a really big thing to you quite frankly, and I know you're being kind of flip about this here, but this was a huge problem for you for a while that you hated this. And I thought well, God, it's nice, it's finally turned around and this guy's getting the respect that he deserves. And you–it's begrudgingly that I use that word in your case, Roger, but there you go. And I thought it was very nice. RW: Yeah, well yeah, it is nice. And certainly they have changed and I have changed, too, in that I don't get as upset as I used to. I tend to just–you know if there's a few people performing out there, I tend to ignore them and get on with what I'm doing. JL: Yeah. RW: I don't worry about it quite so much. JL: Now you were very generous in sharing the spotlight with the various members of this rather incredible band that you've put together. John Carin. I thought he was a marvelous choice to sing "Dogs." RW: He sang it very well, didn't he? JL: And the burning question that everyone has about the song "Dogs" is, was the card game for real? RW: Yeah. It was. JL: What were you playing? RW: We were just playing a kind of whist with trumps. We dealt cards, turned the next card up to designate trumps and then played the hand out and we would write down the score every night. And at the end of the tour it actually worked out very even. I think Andy Fairweather Lowe won most tricks with 81 and then Snowy–I can't remember. Snowy I think had 76 or something and Doyle and I had 71 each. And it's unbelievable that I had the fewest because none of the rest of them had the faintest idea of what they were doing. JL: Ha, ha, ha. RW: If you buy the DVD, there's a bit on the DVD documentary of me teaching them this game and you can tell none of them were card players, but, yeah, we were playing for real. JL: For real. RW: I got the worst hands. You can't believe the hands I got dealt. Night after night after night–I was hoping to make a few quid. JL: Ha, ha, ha. RW: These idiots hadn't the faintest idea what they were doing. JL: Ha, ha, ha. RW: But my cards didn't pan out that way. JL: You actually... RW: So they would lead with all their high cards–I mean it was pathetic really. JL: And you were actually willing to win back the salaries you were paying weren't you, Roger? RW: Well we were playing–I think we were only playing for like $5 a trick, so at the end of the tour if somebody had made 10 tricks more than somebody else, it was like $50 extra they made. And I'm happy to say that that didn't account for a huge percentage of their salary. JL: Okay good, ha, ha, ha. That song, I have been using quite a lot lately during this past presidential race because I find that it fits not only if you're talking about the subject of big business, but it certainly fits for politicians as well. RW: I would think so, yeah. Trip, do you want another drink? TK: I do in fact. I think I'll get one. Excuse me. RW: See you in a bit. Sorry, Jim. What were you saying? Something about politicians and "Dogs"? JL: Johnny, find a cricket bat and reach over and just hit him over the head will ya and just get his attention for me would you? That's what I would do if I was there. Yeah "Dogs." Can we talk about "Dogs"? RW: Yeah. JL: It seemed that it fit because, you know, I use it a lot if I'm playing a set about big business, but it also seemed to fit with the politicians. I'm even getting bored with this question. What do you think? RW: Well it fits. You know, it's about learning patterns, isn't it? It's about –you know sometimes when I'm in the states, and maybe this is because I'm in a foreign country, but I kind of–sometimes I will walk down the street and it feels like, I mean–what was that movie called where the guy was being filmed all the time? That Turner–now what was it called? You know the movie I mean. It had Jim Carrey in it. JL: The Truman Show. RW: The Truman Show, exactly. And sometimes I get that impression that when I turn the corner they'll all stop because they're automated. JL: Ha, ha, ha. RW: People are automated and I think there is a thing–it's what we were saying about politicians before. It's like, you learn the moves. So it's like a show, you know? And it's learning to make the moves to be successful, whether it's in business or in politics it's the same thing. But my suspicion might be that you live a life without much love in it if you do that because the love gets papered over by the stuff that you've learned, you know? I'm not making much sense, but because at the end of the day, it's our experience of love which is important. JL: Instead of someone reacting from the heart or their true feelings, what they're really giving you is the dog and pony show that they have learned. "This is how a person in my position, who wears a suit and tie, is supposed to act." RW: Yeah, exactly. JL: Okay. RW: Or is supposed to act in order that other people should think I'm tough or clever or this or that or the other or successful or whatever it is that we want people to think we are, rather than accepting the fact that we're vulnerable and needy and crave love. Those are the things that are most important to us. They certainly are to me. JL: The line I've always loved in there is, "You've got to be trusted by the people that you lie to, so that when they turn their backs on you, you have a chance to put the knife in." I always thought that was–yeah, that's exactly what happens. RW: Yep. JL: All right. RW: Sadly. JL: Um, well here's a–let's move on now and I'm trying to kind of bunch these together so we don't have to go through each and every song because I can tell we ain't gonna make it today with you that way. So um... RW: Well, it's dull anyway, isn't it? JL: Yes, Roger, and God knows I don't want to bore you or I'll never hear the end of that. You then go on to give us three from Wish You Were Here; "Welcome To The Machine," "Wish You Were Here," "Shine On You Crazy Diamond." Three in a row from that album. And then again, a certain continuity it gives to the show I thought. You can settle into the meaning of these songs, how they relate to each other. And I thought your performance on "Welcome To The Machine" was extremely powerful–more so than the original if that's possible. And the use of the female voices again in this song I thought was great. RW: Right. That's something I've been doing for years because I've been doing "Welcome To The Machine" live for–I think I did it on the KAOS tour. JL: Right. RW: And on the Pros And Cons tour as well, so I've done it quite a lot. So that arrangement has developed over the years with the girls joining in on that one. It's a great song to do. JL: And even though you have the female voices, the song seems more ominous than the original, which I don't quite know how you do that, but it is. And it's–you know listening back to it it's like, this is a very powerful thing. Has the industry itself gotten any better at all since you first penned this song? RW: I don't know because I'm not really involved that much in the industry. I think the industry would accept that–you know, there are people in the industry who do care about music without any doubt, and I know a few of them. And–but having said that, the bottom line is still the bottom line, record companies have shareholders and are there to make a profit. And if they can make a profit without making music they would, you know? JL: Ha, ha, ha, if there wasn't that bothersome little thing of actually having to create something. RW: Yeah, it's typical. And the difficulties they're facing in the near future are enormous with the Internet thing and the MP3 and the this and the that. And how on earth are they gonna protect their copyrights? I dunno, the whole thing's got kind of weird. And I do feel that MTV has created a big problem because it apparently–it made it easier to treat self expression like soap powder in that you can package it and sell it and so a lot of the music industry now is kind of soft porn. And not that I've got anything against pornography–of course I haven't, but it–I think it can make it harder for people that write songs where they have something to express. It makes it more difficult for them to fight their way into the public eye than maybe it was 30 years ago. So maybe the business has become more efficient in terms of its selling techniques and that has made things more difficult for certain people and certain artists. JL: All right. RW: However equally, you know, it's kind of got easier because since the drum machines and the use of computers and Q-Base and Logic and all of that and, you know, almost anybody can make a record that sounds as if it's been made by musicians. And consequently I think people don't go and get in a van and go and tour and do tons and tons of gigs. And I think that's a sadness because that paying of those dues I think is central to the work of people like my heroes like John Prine or Neil Young. I think you have to schlep around and do it and live the life, you know, "smell the leather" in order to be able to create the work. And it's something you can't do if you just sit in a room with a computer and then make a pornographic video.
JL: I couldn't agree more, or if you're spending more time with your dance choreographer. RW: Yeah. JL: Than learning how to play the guitar. RW: Yeah, or your plastic surgeon. JL: Yeah, yeah, all right. This brings us mercifully to the end of the first CD and "Set The Controls For The Heart Of The Sun." This was I thought another great choice of earlier material for the hardcore fans. What does this song mean to you today? I mean take yourself back to when you recorded "Set The Controls" and why did you choose that to include today? RW: Just because it was a very early piece that has stood the test of time, notwithstanding the fact that when I wrote that song it was one of the very first songs that I wrote. In fact, I think it was the first song that I had on a record. And it's actually a rip off of some Chinese poetry of the late Tang period–all that "lotuses lean on each other in yearning" stuff. In fact I think the only line that's in it that's mine is the phrase "Set the controls to the heart of the sun" Most of the rest of it I ripped off from some long dead Chinese poet. But it doesn't seem to matter, you know? And I've had over the years, over the 30 years or so since I wrote that song, I've had lots of really moving reactions to it. People find in it some connection to the great oneness of everything and that's good. JL: Yeah, well side two–do you want to take a little moment here before we go on to Side Two or Disc Two? RW: No, I want to get this over and done with. I want to go and have some dinner for fuck sake. I am allowed to say fuck on the radio aren't I? JL: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just the, once again, the warmth and compassion of Roger Waters comes through in this interview and that's why we've been friends for so many years I think. RW: It is why. It's one of the reasons. JL: One of the reasons–okay, and the fact that you just like to beat the crap out of me at any particular moment that you get the chance. So all right, let's move on to "Breathe." Disc Two opens with "Breathe." And now you're going to give us one, two, three songs from Dark Side Of The Moon. Why did you choose Doyle Bramhall to sing "Breathe"? RW: Well it just seemed like the natural thing to do. It's a song that Dave sang on the original record and I didn't feel like singing it. No, I don't think it would suit my voice particularly. JL: Uh huh. RW: And I think Doyle sings it very well. Plus, Doyle, interestingly enough, loves it. I think it's his favorite song of all the things that he does on this record. JL: I think you told me that when we did the interview for the tour that you said this was the one he loved, yeah. RW: Yeah. JL: Very quickly, the song "Time"–how do you feel that the years have treated you so far? RW: How have the years treated me? JL: Yeah, you seem to be–and what I mean by that is, obviously you're successful, but here you are at this stage of the game, you seem healthy, you're out, you've got this extraordinarily successful tour, but there must be something you can bitch about, Roger? RW: I'm sure there is–what's that phrase–healthy, wealthy and wise, isn't it? JL: Yes. RW: Yes, ha, ha, ha–no I think time has been quite kind to me. You know I'm sort of–I feel as if I'm going to lose any possibility of being articulate in any way very soon. But hang on, let me concentrate. Concentrate–don't lose it. Come on this is your career for fuck sake–think, think. Oh my God, beads of sweat popping out of my forehead. How can I possibly answer this question? JL: I should have come there. I should have come there - fuck. Go ahead. RW: Ha, ha, ha. Time keeps–I can only think of Steve Miller now. "Slippin', slippin', slippin' into the future." Jim, help me. Help me, Jim, I'm drowning. JL: I'm gonna help you because we're gonna make–we're gonna get it off of you and you can talk about somebody else. Andy Fairweather-Low. This is a good– RW: I never thought I'd sing the song live. I really didn't. JL: Yeah? RW: And several of us had a go, and then I thought in the end 'Oh sod it, I'll sing it. What difference does it make?' JL: Ha, ha, ha. RW: It will be all right, you know? And it was. JL: It was –it turned out good. RW: It was –I like the lyrics a lot. It's a great song to sing–it really is. Who was it who actually–whose line did I rip off in 'Hanging On In Quiet Desperation'? Is that Thoreau? I think it is. Most of us live lives of quiet desperation. JL: I think that is Thoreau, yeah. RW: Paul Thoreau, yeah. What's the word for something when you steal something from somebody? JL: I think you want to use the word homage here, Roger. RW: No, it's not homage. Homage is that town in Northern Ireland where they bombed all of those people, isn't it? JL: Ha, ha, ha. RW: It's –oh, God–it's that thing that Andrew Lloyd Webber does all the time with other–you know with other musicians. It's not procrastinate. That means when–procrastinate means when... JL: How many rum and cokes has this guy had? That's what I want to know. RW: Ha, ha, ha. JL: Jesus Christ, I thought you English could drink. RW: It's not prevaricate or procrastinate–what the fuck is it? TK: Plagiarize. RW: Plagiarize is a good–is another word like that's very like the P word that I was searching for. JL: Okay. RW: In fact it may even be it–plagiarize yeah. Plagiarism, in fact I'm sure that's what it is. Thank you, Trip. TK: You're very welcome. RW: Okay. JL: I think that was... RW: Now what was your question, Jim? JL: I think that was worth $5 a minute for this long distance phone call for that little–that's good. Let's move on to "Money," because Andy Fairweather- Low–I want you... RW: How much am I getting paid for this interview? JL: You paid? No, no, no, no, this is just to line my pockets. What we're gonna do here–this is to promote your flagging career, Roger. That's what we're trying to do. We're trying to pump up this album and make sure the public doesn't forget who you are. That's what I'm–that's my mission in life is to promote you. RW: Andy Fairweather-Low–Andy Fairweather-Low, "Money," what, what? JL: I thought his guitar solo was pretty cool. RW: His guitar solo is the highlight of the entire show. JL: Ha, ha, ha. RW: In my view. JL: Okay. RW: It's the thing that we all waited for every night. JL: Uh huh. RW: Absolutely. And those of us who saw lots and lots of shows waited for it every night. It was just magical every night. JL: You know I never thought of "Money" as a hip shakin' song, but the ladies kind of added a bit of sexual overtones to this one. RW: They did–I tried to dissuade them, but I was unable to. JL: Well thank God. RW: They did, they put their hands on their hips didn't they? And they wiggled their butts. JL: And that's why I came back four times. It had nothing to do with the music or the sound effects or anything. But when I saw them do "Money," I said I'm coming back tomorrow night. Now, are you okay? Seriously? RW: I am –I just went a bit quiet there because I don't want to discuss your sexual problems. JL: Ha, ha, ha. I've already been over the sheep, what else do I have left? Okay, can we get serious for just a moment? RW: Yes. JL: Okay. RW: Let's get serious. JL: You did a song that I've always liked but I never focused on as much until I saw you do it live, which is "Every Stranger's Eyes." You know I always liked the song, but for some reason, that one really hit me in the show. RW: Right. JL: And I would think that maybe it's because, actually because I'm older and the song means something more to me now. How about you? RW: I'm older, too, Jim. JL: Uh huh. RW: I've always loved that song. I thought it was the best song on Pros And Cons Of Hitchhiking. And I think in the show its effect is enhanced by the use of the Edward Curtis photographs of Native North Americans doing their thing. And also by the fact that it's different from the original recording in that Andy Fairweather is playing finger styled guitar on a detuned Danelectro. I think it makes a fabulous sound. So I used to enjoy that very much every night. JL: Speaking of "Every Strangers Eyes," you made yourself unusually available to your fans during this tour. This was highly unlike you, but you stopped and signed autographs after the show and you took the time to talk with folks. Why did you–what was the change of heart and why did you think this was important? RW: I did that the year before as well and in fact, I'm not sure that I've ever not done that really, you know? I think I was always pretty warm and cuddly. JL: Ha, ha, ha. RW: But maybe it was just hidden under a few more layers of fear. JL: Ha, ha, ha. RW: In earlier years, you know? JL: You know I never thought I would hear the words 'warm and cuddly' come from your mouth. Now I've heard everything. What did you learn from that experience if anything? RW: Which experience? Saying the words 'warm and cuddly'? JL: Yes that's exactly what I meant. RW: I dunno –it feels good, warm and cuddly. It's okay, you know? JL: But I mean did you... RW: Or do you mean the experience of talking to fans? JL: That's what I mean. RW: Right, well, when you do a show like that there's a strange dichotomy between the notion of the icon and the audience. When in fact–the fact is it's like in "Every Strangers Eyes" the song kind of says it all. 'I have no great pretension to be any different than anybody else.' And I think that's where some of the value in the work lies in the notion of understanding that we're all scared or we all need love. We get it wherever and however we can and part of the way that I get it is by standing up on the stage and singing the songs. And it may well be that part of the way that some of the people who come to the shows get it, is by coming to the shows and understanding–if I didn't care what happened–you know "Pigs On The Wing". It's in the lyric of "Pigs On The Wing". When I'm singing that song I'm singing it directly to all the people who are at the show there. There are connections that we've made with each other that makes me, in the moment that I'm performing the stuff, I feel that connection very deeply. And so do they, so essentially we're doing the same thing. I just happened to be standing in the spotlight. JL: Best answer of the interview so far. That was really nice. Kind of on that same subject, is there a certain amount of vindication or relief or, I don't know how you would react to this–that people, because of the time that has gone by and you and I got into some big discussions about this in the past, because you have always been such a guardedly private person in one of the biggest bands ever in the world, you strove for a long time to be anonymous. Now, time has gone by and people have finally really focused in on you as a solo artist. You are now Roger Waters, the solo artist. And I think they have an even deeper understanding of your contribution to Pink Floyd. Do you think you have finally gotten over that hurdle? And it must be obvious from the tour that you have. Would you agree? RW: Well that certainly seemed to be the case during this tour this last summer. But you know who knows? I think I'll probably have to accept that–I don't know how many people came to see those shows. We could do the sums. We did 26 shows and say they were average maybe at 15,000 people a show or 10,000 people a show, so I think it's 200–it's probably less than 300,000 people. Whereas The Wall for instance I think sold 30 million albums or something like that. So I'm sure there are still enormous numbers of people who know the work of Pink Floyd but have no idea that I have anything to do with it, or had anything to do with it. But so what really? I think, you know, 300,000 is enough really. JL: Ha, ha, ha. RW: You know, three people is really enough. JL: Ha, ha, ha. RW: Well maybe three is not quite enough. JL: Not quite is a good... RW: But you take my point. I don't–what was good about the show or what I felt about listening to the–I've been working on editing the DVD and James has been sending me mixes from the show for the live album and things. And I'm really glad the way the new work, or the work off Amused To Death stands up along side the older work. JL: Well I think you made a lot of people happy that you decided to do four songs from Amused To Death because some people were very upset that you did not tour with that album. They wanted to see you do Amused To Death. So it was nice that you gave them four songs in this concert. RW: Yeah, well I would have like to have toured for Amused To Death, but there wasn't very much of a reaction to it when it came out. And having kind of schlepped around the country to not much of a reaction–well it–it's like I just said to you, you know, three people is enough. It is enough, but it's not when you're touring. JL: Yeah. RW: You need more than three people at a concert otherwise it's depressing for everybody. And that's kind of how I felt touring Amused To Death might be because there wasn't huge numbers of people who bought the record. JL: But were you surprised to the positive response that you got from the songs in this show? RW: Oh it was amazing. "Perfect Sense" every single night was just stunning, the response that we got. People really responded to that irony, which was nice to see. JL: See that surprised me, too. It surprised me that you did not do "What God Wants." RW: Right, well I did on the very first show of the tour and then I edited it because we did it on every show the summer before and it never quite worked. It felt like an uphill struggle. JL: Hmmm. RW: Because the satire–it felt as if it fell between the two stools of rock and roll and satire. And it was hard work, it was really. Plus I think it's a difficult song to do without Jeff. You know, Jeff Beck's work on the album is so extraordinary that it always felt slightly odd to be doing it without him. JL: But the songs "Perfect Sense" 1 and 2 and "The Bravery Of Being Out Of Range" –these–the crowd responded to these like they had been hit singles. RW: Yeah. JL: What does that tell... RW: Well I think, you know, by and large, the people who came to the shows knew the body of work well. They knew the Pink Floyd work and they knew Amused To Death and they knew Pros And Cons. They know all of the songs. You know they get it. I'm working on a new album at the moment and I think they'll get that, too. I'm kind of excited about it. JL: You want to tell me about it? RW: Well we do one of the songs from it in the show. "Each Small Candle," which we finish the show with as you know. That will be on the new record. And I wasn't sure whether to do that or one of the more accessible songs that we've done. I wanted to do one new song on this tour and I wasn't sure whether to do that or something else. But in the end I'm really glad I did it because it makes a strong humanitarian and political point A, and B, again musically I think it stands up really well within the context of everything else that goes on during the evening. Listening to the recordings now, that struck me even more how strong it is musically. And I'm glad about that. JL: See, I'll tell you, I thought it was very gutsy and at the same time extremely poignant that you chose that song as the encore, because the cliche thing would have been to come out and do, I don't know–say "Money" for then or something that was–you know, some kind of up-tempo, really well-known song, and you chose to do not only a very serious song, but a new song. And the crowd got into it. For those that weren't there and may not know the story, tell us quickly the story that inspired "Each Small Candle." RW: Okay, a few years ago I was approached by an Italian journalist who worked for a Florentine paper and who was trying raise awareness and money for the Initiative Against Torture and we spoke on the telephone and then corresponded and he sent me some lyrics that had been written–or a poem that had been written by a victim of torture from Argentina. And I set the translation of this poem to music and then added the line, 'Each small candle lights a corner of the dark.' And at that time, I was–there was some talk of maybe making a record to help, but I lost touch with this guy and he disappeared. And then years later when we were bombing Kosovo, the United States and England and I think the French got involved as well–probably in the second or third wave I would think the French. JL: Ha, ha, ha. RW: Anyway I was reading in the paper one day about a Serbian Soldier who broke ranks from his unit and went to help an ethnic Albanian woman who was wounded and lying in some rubble. And in that act of human kindness across those cultural, ethnic and national divisions, I found some comfort in that unholy mess that was all that problem in the Balkans. So I wrote a couple of extra verses, a couple of new verses about that incident and appended them to the poem about being tortured. And that became 'Each Small Candle.' JL: It's a beautiful song, Roger, it really is. And I think it's one of your most poignant tunes you've written yet. You brought up the bombing of Kosovo. I had brought this up in connection with–I was gonna ask you this in connection with "The Bravery Being Out Of Range," that although it wasn't written for that, "The Bravery Being Out Of Range" could have been the soundtrack for our involvement in Kosovo–would you agree? RW: Oh yeah, absolutely. It seemed to me to be a kind of knee jerk reaction to a political situation, but the–in fact, it's not a knee jerk. It is in fact–I've got that absolutely wrong. It's not a knee jerk, it's you stick the boot out, not because you're responding to anything particularly, except the need to impress the popular vote. JL: Say that again, somebody was moving furniture there. Say that again. RW: Yeah, that you stick the boot out not as a knee jerk reaction to something that's happened. Slobodon Milosovich is a horrible man, so let's kick him. It's not that, it's Slobodon Milosovich can be identified as a villain, therefore we'll kick him because that'll make us look good to the folks back home, because there's a lot of other people that can be identified as villains that we don't kick, because it's too difficult or it would cost too much or it's too far away or it's too politically inconvenient in other ways. So if we can all join together–you know big Bill Clinton and little Tony Blair and kick some ass without taking any real risk ourselves in political terms then we'll do it because it makes us look good. JL: Very good. RW: It may be that their motives are other than that, but if they are, I can't see it myself. JL: So you... RW: Otherwise they would respond in different ways in other situations, you know? JL: Uh huh. RW: We would have all been bombing East Timor for instance for the last 15 years where this genocide has been going on. But we haven't, we haven't lifted a finger. Presumably because it's not politically expedient. JL: Alright. We're getting close to the end here so just... RW: Whoopee! JL: Yeah, suck it up for me. RW: I'm hungry. JL: I know, I know. RW: I need some cracked conch. JL: Some what? RW: Cracked conch. JL: Oh, conch. RW: Yeah. JL: Okay, that's not what that sounded like at this end of the phone and I thought, man. My favorite song–like you really care–from Amused To Death, is the song "It's A Miracle." Talk to me a moment about the westernization of cultures around the globe and why this is such a bad thing in your view. RW: Oh right, yeah–um well, I think it's important that all of us protect what connects us to the earth and to our ancestors and to each other. And a lot of what that is is cultural inheritance, cultural heritage and I see that being eroded very much by the multi-national's need to express their desire for greater profits by spreading themselves across the world. And it's something that I mention in Radio KAOS. What's the song that goes on, 'Minor invasion put down to expenses'? Da, la, la, la, minor invasion... JL: "Home." RW: "Home." "Will you take to the hills" you know, is about my concern about protecting what I consider to be our birthright and our connection with our ancestors really, and our cultural roots in the face of the invasion of McDonald's. Which not only destroys the quality of our lives, but it apparently kills us. You know, we all get CJD and die because they used these dead cows that have been feeding on their own dead parts for the last umpteen years and maybe God's way of telling us that it's a bad thing is by allowing these bacteria to survive the cooking process and kill us and our children.
JL: And the... do you see–because when I've gone to England and I walk down these ancient cobblestone streets past houses that are three or four hundreds years older than America is as a country and all of a sudden there's a Kentucky Fried Chicken or a McDonald's or a Burger King. As an American it made me ill and I don't understand why–what the attraction is. In other words, it's different than here in LA where you go to a Chinese restaurant to eat Chinese food, but it's not a chain of Chinese restaurants. You understand? You take my meaning? RW: Yeah I do. JL: Yeah. RW: I'm not a great believer in the value of franchised fast food outlets I have to say. This would not be high on my priorities of things that we should preserve and nurture. That's notwithstanding the fact that obviously a lot of people like eating this crap, you know? So it's a difficult –it brings up that whole difficult arena of finding something that works better than the marketplace to define the way that we live our lives. JL: But it's... RW: And there is something better. JL: Which is? RW: Um well, that's the big question. That's the big question facing us I think is what–can we find something to put in the place of the free market which has become our God. Because at the end of the day, if we go on believing that the free market is the universal panacea, you know, we end up with the entire world will just be one big shopping mall, you know, with a fast foot outlet every 60 yards. And where we can all posture away at each other until the cows come home, but there will be precious little love in it. JL: But we will have the ability to amuse ourselves to death. RW: Right. JL: Which brings me to that song. RW: Yeah, that we will. JL: As much as I love the studio version of "Amused To Death," I will tell you that I know actually–and this is very rare for me, I very rarely like a live version better than the studio version, but in this case, I prefer this new live version and I think it's because you seem to capture even more emotion in your performance than you did on the studio. This is like a more emotional, a more angry–I don't want to use the word angry–it's just a more emotional performance. Would you agree with that? RW: Right, it could well be. And the fact is that, working on the new record that I'm working on, the work that I've done on it so far is I've put the band together, we've learned the songs and then we play them quite a lot together and we will then record them. Whereas as making Amused To Death and Pros And Cons and Radio KAOS, they were very much that there's an idea and then there's this very simple demo of the song and then we go into the studio and we put down some keyboard pads or a drum track and build the thing up in a way. And that's an interesting way of working, but I'm finding myself being drawn back towards the idea of working with a band. This band that I've worked with on this tour is the band that I want to work with. JL: Um, you mentioned–I've got to ask you this question because everybody asks me this question. Why did you not do even one song from Radio KAOS? RW: 'Cause you're on it. JL: Ha, ha, ha. RW: No, I'm kidding, that was a silly thing for me to say because obviously it's not true. JL: Ha, ha, ha. RW: Yeah, it's because of your joke about sperm whales on it. JL: Oh God. RW: No, why didn't I? Um, you know funny enough, Nick Griffiths said to me, 'Are you gonna do "Me Or Him"? Because he says it's his favorite song ever in the whole thing. Why didn't I? I can't remember. "The Powers That Be"–we did "The Powers That Be" the year before. JL: Yeah. RW: That's from Radio KAOS isn't it? JL: Yes it is. Great song, great song. RW: It is, it is a good song, but um–what would you drop out? You know, looking at the show, what you have to do is say, okay, we want to do this song off of Radio KAOS, so you've got to drop something because the show is nearly three hours long and I can't sing anymore than that. JL: Well that's very unfair to back into it that way because I would, of course, what am I gonna say? Well, yeah, I would have dropped–no, I wouldn't have dropped anything, but to not have "The Powers That Be" or "The Tide Is Turning"... RW: But you know, "The Tide Is Turning," I much prefer the version that we did in Berlin to the version on the record. JL: Yeah. Well anyway so you're... RW: I think as well–to be honest with you, I like a lot of the songs on Radio KAOS, but I think that road I went down working with Ian Richie, who I produced the record with, and I kind of regret the path that we went down there where a lot of it was sequenced before we put anything else on it. And I think I allowed myself to be sucked into a room where there was more machinery than I naturally feel comfortable with. JL: Well it is different than anything else that you've done, but it would be interesting to hear how you would now, with some time, have reworked one of those songs into... RW: That is true. "You wake up in the morning, get something for the pot–wonder why the rocks–I wonder why this song makes the rocks feel hot, draw on the walls, eat, get laid like in the good old days." JL: There you go–well anyway, for the next leg. RW: Yeah, maybe. JL: Just a couple more, then we're gonna let you go. I know you're hungry and starting to get a little 'in your cup,' so did you decide to record some of the shows and do a live album before the tour started? Or was it the fact that the shows were going so well that you wanted to document it with a record? RW: We definitely had decided–the shows went so well the year before that we had definitely decided that we would record some of the shows this time. JL: And what... RW: In fact, we would have recorded them on the first tour, but I discovered there was a curious anomaly that because I have–my solo deal is now with Sony worldwide and the original recordings were made with EMI in Pink Floyd, there were re-recording restrictions and I had to converse with EMI at some length to get them to raise the re-recording restrictions because we were in this strange situation where I was the only person in the world who could not record those songs, my songs. JL: Is that right? RW: Yeah –that's why we didn't make a record last year. JL: Wait, wait, wait–you the writer were the only person in the world that could not re-record the songs? RW: Exactly because my ex-colleagues were still attached to EMI and EMI had re-recording restrictions from the original contract with Pink Floyd to which I was a party and therefore I needed EMI's permission to re-record the songs. And EMI was having to go cap in hand to Dave and Nick and Steve O'Rourke and say, "is it all right if we let Roger record his songs?" And of course I was not party to those conversations. JL: Ha, ha, ha. And the response was? RW: Well I dunno but, you know, it took me a while to persuade EMI. In fact, EMI didn't lift the re-recording restrictions until they wanted some visual stuff that I owned in order to try and sell the live recordings of The Wall. JL: That may be one of the... RW: So we came to some arrangement. JL: You know I... RW: Not that I'm trying to paint EMI as villains in this piece because I'm not. But you know, business is business my boy, what can I tell you? JL: Well I'll tell you I've been around rock and roll for 30 years and that is one of the strangest stories I've ever heard. That is an amazing–that's amazing. RW: Yeah. JL: All right, let's... RW: It pissed me off, I don't mind telling you. JL: Pissed you off? RW: Well, not to be able to record my own fucking songs? I thought that was a bit rich. JL: We haven't wound him up enough yet, so let me just wind him up a little bit more before we get out of here. You know, Roger, I really don't think that just because you wrote the song that you have any reason that you should really have the right–never mind, I'm going down the wrong... Um, let me talk to you very quickly and then we're gonna get to the end here–"Brain Damage" and "Eclipse." By the time you got to this stage of the show, I looked around and there were actually people weeping at this point. They were actually weeping. RW: (in a mock-weeping tone) How long's this gonna go on? JL: That's right. RW: Ha, ha, ha. JL: That's right. RW: Don't think–that's not me now in this interview, that's me being the people in the audience. JL: Right. RW: Weeping. JL: Yeah we got that, Roger. We're not all–because we're in the colonies we're not really slow. RW: Okay. JL: Did you –do you find any kind of renewed relevance in these songs? And again, I keep thinking, you know, the perspective of time and then all of a sudden you find yourself playing these songs live? They must touch you and move you in some way or you wouldn't be doing it. RW: Yeah, "Brain Damage." I mean the chorus of "Brain Damage" has just become one of the most famous, you know, 'If the cloud bursts thunder in your ear' all that and 'I'll see you on the dark side of the moon' is probably as you know one of the most well known quotes from the whole history of rock and roll. It's like we all feel that disconnectedness from time to time in our lives that I express in those songs and I guess that's why they are popular or why people still latch on to them. And every time I sing that thing I feel right there just as much as I ever did in 1972 or '73 or whenever I wrote it. Plus, you know, I feel for absent friends. Pete Watts who was our roadie, who OD'd and died in, you know, whenever it was, well over 20 years ago now. And in the performance of those songs I remember him and Syd and, you know, it takes me back. And I don't mind being taken back. JL: You have always been, without being maudlin about it, but you've always been very respective of being kind of the keeper of Syd's flame, while trying to–and I remember last time you admonished anybody who was even thinking about trying to interview Syd Barrett or bother him in any way, don't. But I've always liked the way that you have kept his contribution and respect his contribution live while not trying to make him some sort of rock and roll mysterious icon. Do you understand what I'm saying? RW: Yeah, well, he was my friend, you know? We were friends and we were–when I was 17 and he was 15 or 15-and-a-half, I'm a bit older than him–we kind of shared that dream together. And he was extraordinarily creative and full of life before he became ill. And those of us who survived in Pink Floyd owe him a lot because he provided that original flicker of creativity and... well, flicker of creativity, which was so important in the beginning. I mean maybe in the beginning I provided something as well. I mean I provided some kind of push, but Syd provided that initial spark and I think he certainly showed me what was possible if you were prepared to take the risk. JL: Very good–I've got two more questions and this one's kind of a pedantic question, but you bookended the show with songs from The Wall. You start with "In The Flesh!" and then you end with "Comfortably Numb." My question is this: when you listen to–when you're at the show and you listen to the CD, to me the logical ending of the show is "Eclipse." That seems to me the final–that's it, big applause, encore, you know? But you come back and you end with "Comfortably Numb," which I thought was an interesting choice from you and I'd like to know why you would put "Comfortably Numb" there. Was it simply because it's a well-known song or was that, were you saying something by playing that song there? RW: No, I just like it and so did the audience and it's a great noise to commune with, you know? And all that, you know, people really respond to all of that, 'Hello, is there anybody in there, Just nod if you can hear me, is there anyone at home.' You know, it's very direct communication. There's a real sense of community in that thing. Um, in the chorus which Doyle sings, all that, you know, 'There is no pain, you are receding a distant ship smoke,' so it's–that expression of the distance and the fragmentation and the dissatisfaction and pain that we all feel, and that is the thing that we wish in our lives if possible to transcend. It's kind of central to all of my work, so I think it's–I think it's a perfectly good song to–it's a very good song in fact–to finish with. Plus of course it's the boys up on the chicken run doing their dueling guitar bit, which is very uplifting I find. JL: Very dramatic yes. All right, when will the DVD be released? RW: February 8th. JL: February 8th and you are working on a new studio album. You guarantee us we're getting new music? RW: Yeah absolutely. I am–I am yeah, I'm writing and I'm coming up with new songs from time to time. I've got, I don't know, five or six new songs, maybe a couple more even. JL: Well, I know that you–I know this is not a process of churning things for you and you've got to work in your own timetable. But let me just tell you, you're overdue. RW: Yeah. JL: We want to hear new music. Get on with it. RW: I'm getting on with it, Jim. I'm going as fast as I can. JL: All right, all right. Hey listen, man, I miss ya and I'm very sorry I couldn't be there with you but thank you for being so patient and have a great dinner and I'll talk to you soon. RW: Thank you, Jim, I will, and I–you know, I know when I do these interviews with you that really what I say is kind of completely irrelevant because you and Johnny are gonna edit it all and do that thing that you do so brilliantly. And I'm not being sarcastic, I mean that. So I look forward to hearing it. JL: All right, brother. RW: I mean, I thought the one you did before the tour was phenomenal I have to say. JL: I was proud of that one and I'll try to do you proud this time as well. RW: All right, mate. JL: Okay, buddy. RW: Lots of love. JL: Same to you. RW: Love to Shelley. JL: All right, thank you. RW: All right. Great, that's it. Cracked conch time.
|
Wow.
Okay, this is for real. Pause for a moment. Holy sh*t, I'm a massive Waters
fan and I'm a Parrothead, and now I'm going to an island in the Caribbean
to interview Roger Waters! "Please please don't wake up from this."
Nope, it's for real. So we got Jim Ladd on the phone, who was unable
to go to the Bahamas and do it himself because it would take him away
from KLOS for too long, and I assured him that I would deliver. Jim
knows me as well as anyone I work with by now, and I found it a nice
boost for him to put his confidence in me. As it turned out, my boss
threw the idea to Roger's label guy that we could have Jim on a speakerphone,
so I didn't get to personally interview Roger, but whatever. I was going
to the Bahamas, and by cashing in a little vacation time, I was able
to stay through the weekend. Works for me! 
I
must admit that Animals was probably more appropriate for my visit to
Battersea Power Station earlier this year, and although it's a great
album, Jimmy Buffett's A1A and Fruitcakes probably spent more
time in my Walkman that week. 
After
the beach reprise, I was off to the conference room to prepare. The
set up was actually simple: Jim asked the questions over the speakerphone,
Roger gave his answers while I recorded him on two DAT decks (always
gotta have a backup). I had just about finished setting up the microphone
when the telephone rang. 
Dinner
wrapped up and we hopped a cab back to the hotel. I was very tired at
this point, and frankly, just a wee bit buzzed. I could feel myself
really wanting to nod off in the cab, so when we got back to the hotel
I decided to turn in for the night. I shook Trip's hand, then Roger's,
and said, "Gentlemen, have a great fishing trip, and may you set the
new Caribbean record." They both chuckled. "And Roger, thanks again
for this interview. Jim and I will do it justice."